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	<title>Comments on: IE8 Bug &#8211; HTML Spacer Entities Create One Pixel Jog In Line-Height</title>
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	<link>http://readableweb.com/ie8-bug-html-spacer-entities-create-one-pixel-jog-in-line-height/</link>
	<description>Tracking The Move From Print To The Networked Screen</description>
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		<title>By: Gérard Talbot</title>
		<link>http://readableweb.com/ie8-bug-html-spacer-entities-create-one-pixel-jog-in-line-height/comment-page-1/#comment-3270</link>
		<dc:creator>Gérard Talbot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Apr 2010 01:33:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://readableweb.com/?p=445#comment-3270</guid>
		<description>Hello Richard,

You say
&lt;blockquote&gt;&quot;(...) will therefore adversely ef­fect a lot of users (...) Especially dis­ap­point­ing in IE (...) It’s upsetting to see this, really. (...)   now it seems we have to ei­ther shy away from them or simply accept the side-effect. (...) This is breaking behavior that greatly impacts readability (...) it can be surprisingly noticeable and very distracting.
&quot;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

&lt;strong&gt;I think you over-excessively exaggerate the damage (severity, gravity, criticality) caused by this bug&lt;/strong&gt;. It&#039;s 1px. And I am convinced that a very wide majority (over 99.99%) of ordinary people will never notice such a bug. Your demo page is also very revealing of this. You need XP and a good, careful, thorough look to see the visual effect of the bug: a 1px offset.

On the other hand, websites with tiny font size and frozen font-size tyrannizing users, impacting readability, especially for seniors, is still very frequent.

I also checked the code of your webpages, including the code of the test page that reproduces the problem. You should first fix the validation (markup and CSS) errors. e.g.
&lt;code&gt;line-height:22px; !important;&lt;/code&gt;

Your CSS code is unjustifiably over-declaring, also over-constraining. 
When trying to &quot;corner&quot; a bug in CSS or in HTML, you need to reduce code declarations. Your testpage does the reverse: it over-declares. E.g.:

&lt;code&gt;font-family:&#039;cambria&#039;;
font-size:17px;
line-height:22px; !important;&lt;/code&gt;
Why setting font, font-size, line-height? If the bug is really caused by the entities spacers, then you should avoid including lots of CSS declarations; you should reduce CSS declarations to eliminate possible side effects.
Why did you want to set !important to line-height anyway? 
You expect to get 2.5px (22px minus 17px divided by 2) for half-leading above and below content area. It does not work like that. Fraction of a pixel is not rendered the same in mainstream browsers (IE8, Firefox 3.6, Opera 10.5x, Safari 4.0.5, Chrome 4.x, Konqueror 4.4.2); some truncate, some round up.
&lt;q&gt;any standard web font will exhibit the behavior&lt;/q&gt;
Your testpage does not demonstate that.

&lt;code&gt;position:absolute; left:40px; etc.&lt;/code&gt;
Wasn&#039;t it possible to create a reduced testpage without having to absolutely position text content? Not sure...

&lt;code&gt;text-align:justify;
text-align:right;&lt;/code&gt;
&lt;code&gt;text-align:justify;
text-align:left;&lt;/code&gt;

Why the double text-align declarations?

&lt;blockquote&gt;&quot;The jog can also be more easily seen if you Zoom up to 125% or 150%.&quot;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Well, then I think it would have been a good idea to set font-size: 2em; (or font-size: 200%;) and then write one, only one, 2-lines sentence and then put both of them side by side. Also I would have tried to reduce column width... instead of fixing them to 444px.

Maybe there is a bug with the line-height... but your testpage does not demonstrate this well and correctly. There is just too many issues with your testpage. One good point is that you provided 2 screenshots... 

Regarding Zoffix Znet&#039;s comment, overall, I agree entirely with Zoffix Znet. Web design isn’t print design. Web authors should focus on content and less on style and presentation; users should have control over presentation. Users have a veto power over submitted style and presentation in webpages. 

regards, Gérard</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello Richard,</p>
<p>You say</p>
<blockquote><p>&#8220;(&#8230;) will therefore adversely ef­fect a lot of users (&#8230;) Especially dis­ap­point­ing in IE (&#8230;) It’s upsetting to see this, really. (&#8230;)   now it seems we have to ei­ther shy away from them or simply accept the side-effect. (&#8230;) This is breaking behavior that greatly impacts readability (&#8230;) it can be surprisingly noticeable and very distracting.<br />
&#8220;</p></blockquote>
<p><strong>I think you over-excessively exaggerate the damage (severity, gravity, criticality) caused by this bug</strong>. It&#8217;s 1px. And I am convinced that a very wide majority (over 99.99%) of ordinary people will never notice such a bug. Your demo page is also very revealing of this. You need XP and a good, careful, thorough look to see the visual effect of the bug: a 1px offset.</p>
<p>On the other hand, websites with tiny font size and frozen font-size tyrannizing users, impacting readability, especially for seniors, is still very frequent.</p>
<p>I also checked the code of your webpages, including the code of the test page that reproduces the problem. You should first fix the validation (markup and CSS) errors. e.g.<br />
<code>line-height:22px; !important;</code></p>
<p>Your CSS code is unjustifiably over-declaring, also over-constraining.<br />
When trying to &#8220;corner&#8221; a bug in CSS or in HTML, you need to reduce code declarations. Your testpage does the reverse: it over-declares. E.g.:</p>
<p><code>font-family:'cambria';<br />
font-size:17px;<br />
line-height:22px; !important;</code><br />
Why setting font, font-size, line-height? If the bug is really caused by the entities spacers, then you should avoid including lots of CSS declarations; you should reduce CSS declarations to eliminate possible side effects.<br />
Why did you want to set !important to line-height anyway?<br />
You expect to get 2.5px (22px minus 17px divided by 2) for half-leading above and below content area. It does not work like that. Fraction of a pixel is not rendered the same in mainstream browsers (IE8, Firefox 3.6, Opera 10.5x, Safari 4.0.5, Chrome 4.x, Konqueror 4.4.2); some truncate, some round up.<br />
<q>any standard web font will exhibit the behavior</q><br />
Your testpage does not demonstate that.</p>
<p><code>position:absolute; left:40px; etc.</code><br />
Wasn&#8217;t it possible to create a reduced testpage without having to absolutely position text content? Not sure&#8230;</p>
<p><code>text-align:justify;<br />
text-align:right;</code><br />
<code>text-align:justify;<br />
text-align:left;</code></p>
<p>Why the double text-align declarations?</p>
<blockquote><p>&#8220;The jog can also be more easily seen if you Zoom up to 125% or 150%.&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p>Well, then I think it would have been a good idea to set font-size: 2em; (or font-size: 200%;) and then write one, only one, 2-lines sentence and then put both of them side by side. Also I would have tried to reduce column width&#8230; instead of fixing them to 444px.</p>
<p>Maybe there is a bug with the line-height&#8230; but your testpage does not demonstrate this well and correctly. There is just too many issues with your testpage. One good point is that you provided 2 screenshots&#8230; </p>
<p>Regarding Zoffix Znet&#8217;s comment, overall, I agree entirely with Zoffix Znet. Web design isn’t print design. Web authors should focus on content and less on style and presentation; users should have control over presentation. Users have a veto power over submitted style and presentation in webpages. </p>
<p>regards, Gérard</p>
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		<title>By: 17shadu</title>
		<link>http://readableweb.com/ie8-bug-html-spacer-entities-create-one-pixel-jog-in-line-height/comment-page-1/#comment-913</link>
		<dc:creator>17shadu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 08:59:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://readableweb.com/?p=445#comment-913</guid>
		<description>Yes ,I have also experienced this problem, I see this site IE8&#039;s CSS HACK.
position:relative; top/*\**/:1px\9; *top:0;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes ,I have also experienced this problem, I see this site IE8&#8242;s CSS HACK.<br />
position:relative; top/*\**/:1px\9; *top:0;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Barry</title>
		<link>http://readableweb.com/ie8-bug-html-spacer-entities-create-one-pixel-jog-in-line-height/comment-page-1/#comment-711</link>
		<dc:creator>Barry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 20:59:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://readableweb.com/?p=445#comment-711</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m also very frustrated by this bug, running windows server 2003 IE8 tried &amp; tested everything. I&#039;m sorry to say it looks better in IE6... just hope this bug gets sorted.

And sorry Zoffix
&quot;if you want to control user experience to the pixel then you picked a wrong profession.&quot; lol.... funniest thing I&#039;ve heard all week, you probably still use tables Zoffix with 4px borders.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m also very frustrated by this bug, running windows server 2003 IE8 tried &amp; tested everything. I&#8217;m sorry to say it looks better in IE6&#8230; just hope this bug gets sorted.</p>
<p>And sorry Zoffix<br />
&#8220;if you want to control user experience to the pixel then you picked a wrong profession.&#8221; lol&#8230;. funniest thing I&#8217;ve heard all week, you probably still use tables Zoffix with 4px borders.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Fink</title>
		<link>http://readableweb.com/ie8-bug-html-spacer-entities-create-one-pixel-jog-in-line-height/comment-page-1/#comment-353</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Fink</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Sep 2009 14:29:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://readableweb.com/?p=445#comment-353</guid>
		<description>Chetan,

I was reading &lt;em&gt;your&lt;/em&gt; observations about font rendering, as well. I&#039;ll be going back to take a closer look. Good stuff. Bookmarked!
Yes, you&#039;re correct. The CSS term &#039;line height&#039; doesn&#039;t map exactly to &#039;leading&#039; in the print world. thanks for bringing up the distinction because I was planning, at some point, to write a glossary of print-to-web terms.
Regards, Rich</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chetan,</p>
<p>I was reading <em>your</em> observations about font rendering, as well. I&#8217;ll be going back to take a closer look. Good stuff. Bookmarked!<br />
Yes, you&#8217;re correct. The CSS term &#8216;line height&#8217; doesn&#8217;t map exactly to &#8216;leading&#8217; in the print world. thanks for bringing up the distinction because I was planning, at some point, to write a glossary of print-to-web terms.<br />
Regards, Rich</p>
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		<title>By: Chetan Crasta</title>
		<link>http://readableweb.com/ie8-bug-html-spacer-entities-create-one-pixel-jog-in-line-height/comment-page-1/#comment-352</link>
		<dc:creator>Chetan Crasta</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Sep 2009 13:57:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://readableweb.com/?p=445#comment-352</guid>
		<description>Congrats on finding such a subtle bug!
Just one thing: line height and leading are not the same thing.
When you subtract the content box height from the line height you get the leading.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Congrats on finding such a subtle bug!<br />
Just one thing: line height and leading are not the same thing.<br />
When you subtract the content box height from the line height you get the leading.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Fink</title>
		<link>http://readableweb.com/ie8-bug-html-spacer-entities-create-one-pixel-jog-in-line-height/comment-page-1/#comment-116</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Fink</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Aug 2009 00:56:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://readableweb.com/?p=445#comment-116</guid>
		<description>@Zoffix Znet:
&quot;&lt;em&gt;web design isn’t print design; if you want to control user experience to the pixel then you picked a wrong profession.&lt;/em&gt;&quot;
The human eye is capable of distinguishing approximately 600 points per inch.
Now, speaking not as a web designer, but as a &#8220;user&#8221; who is as self-interested in controlling my experience as  you are, I would prefer it if web authors had control over all 600 of those points. If they did, I think my experience would improve substantially.
You may disagree - perhaps slovenliness and/or imprecision is a part of the web&#039;s charm and we will all miss it greatly should authors be given, heaven forbid, such control.
Frankly, I&#039;d be more worried about who has control over content, but hey, that&#039;s just me being paranoid, probably. I&#039;m crazy enough to think that Amazon has the power to delete the books it doesn&#039;t want you to read right off your Kindle! Crazy, huh?
Thanks for your input.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Zoffix Znet:<br />
&#8220;<em>web design isn’t print design; if you want to control user experience to the pixel then you picked a wrong profession.</em>&#8221;<br />
The human eye is capable of distinguishing approximately 600 points per inch.<br />
Now, speaking not as a web designer, but as a &#8220;user&#8221; who is as self-interested in controlling my experience as  you are, I would prefer it if web authors had control over all 600 of those points. If they did, I think my experience would improve substantially.<br />
You may disagree &#8211; perhaps slovenliness and/or imprecision is a part of the web&#8217;s charm and we will all miss it greatly should authors be given, heaven forbid, such control.<br />
Frankly, I&#8217;d be more worried about who has control over content, but hey, that&#8217;s just me being paranoid, probably. I&#8217;m crazy enough to think that Amazon has the power to delete the books it doesn&#8217;t want you to read right off your Kindle! Crazy, huh?<br />
Thanks for your input.</p>
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		<title>By: Zoffix Znet</title>
		<link>http://readableweb.com/ie8-bug-html-spacer-entities-create-one-pixel-jog-in-line-height/comment-page-1/#comment-110</link>
		<dc:creator>Zoffix Znet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Aug 2009 22:25:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://readableweb.com/?p=445#comment-110</guid>
		<description>First of all, I think this is a ridiculous post. 1px line height difference? No offence, but web design isn&#039;t print design; if you want to control user experience to the pixel then you picked a wrong profession.

Second of all, I could not reproduce the bug when using &lt;code&gt;text-decoration: underline overline;&lt;/code&gt; and line-height set in pixels (and it shouldn&#039;t be set in them) to make those two lines touch each other. Perfect in IE8 on Windows.

Lastly, if you set line-height in `em` units, the line height vary by a pixel in Firefox and I&#039;m sure in many other browsers.

Cheers!
        &lt;a href=&quot;http://haslayout.net/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Zoffix Znet&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>First of all, I think this is a ridiculous post. 1px line height difference? No offence, but web design isn&#8217;t print design; if you want to control user experience to the pixel then you picked a wrong profession.</p>
<p>Second of all, I could not reproduce the bug when using <code>text-decoration: underline overline;</code> and line-height set in pixels (and it shouldn&#8217;t be set in them) to make those two lines touch each other. Perfect in IE8 on Windows.</p>
<p>Lastly, if you set line-height in `em` units, the line height vary by a pixel in Firefox and I&#8217;m sure in many other browsers.</p>
<p>Cheers!<br />
        <a href="http://haslayout.net/" rel="nofollow">Zoffix Znet</a></p>
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		<title>By: Richard Fink</title>
		<link>http://readableweb.com/ie8-bug-html-spacer-entities-create-one-pixel-jog-in-line-height/comment-page-1/#comment-15</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Fink</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jun 2009 18:04:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://readableweb.com/?p=445#comment-15</guid>
		<description>@Joe Clark:&#8194;Sometimes, yes I do.&lt;br /&gt;
&#8195;For certain kinds of word-spacing and kerning problems where the CSS alternative is using a span element with a class attribute, I find inserting a spacer entity much less unwieldy.&lt;br /&gt;
&#8195;Plus, there are instances where the user has no access to the CSS in a page and wishes to format their text. For example, with indentation as I have done here in this reply to you.&lt;br /&gt;
I&#039;ll be doing a post about all of the spacer entities&#8201;&#8212;&#8201;some of them really &#8220;&lt;em&gt;spacer characters&lt;/em&gt;&#8221;&#8201;&#8212;&#8201;and authors can choose for themselves what makes sense.&lt;br /&gt;
Glad you found my neologism fun!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Joe Clark:&ensp;Sometimes, yes I do.<br />
&emsp;For certain kinds of word-spacing and kerning problems where the CSS alternative is using a span element with a class attribute, I find inserting a spacer entity much less unwieldy.<br />
&emsp;Plus, there are instances where the user has no access to the CSS in a page and wishes to format their text. For example, with indentation as I have done here in this reply to you.<br />
I&#8217;ll be doing a post about all of the spacer entities&thinsp;&mdash;&thinsp;some of them really &#8220;<em>spacer characters</em>&#8221;&thinsp;&mdash;&thinsp;and authors can choose for themselves what makes sense.<br />
Glad you found my neologism fun!</p>
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		<title>By: Joe Clark</title>
		<link>http://readableweb.com/ie8-bug-html-spacer-entities-create-one-pixel-jog-in-line-height/comment-page-1/#comment-14</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe Clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jun 2009 12:54:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://readableweb.com/?p=445#comment-14</guid>
		<description>You mean you’re using “spacer entities” (fun neologism, BTW) just like spacer GIFs? Because they’re easier than CSS?

You’re so 2009 you’re 1997!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You mean you’re using “spacer entities” (fun neologism, BTW) just like spacer GIFs? Because they’re easier than CSS?</p>
<p>You’re so 2009 you’re 1997!</p>
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